Pow Wow:Bronx River Center & New York Hip-Hop Clubs

By Troy L. Smith

Photo: Michele Hairston 2013

Troy L. Smith: When and where did you first get on the mic?

Pow Wow:  It was about '1977 or '78. The first place I ever picked up the device called a mic was in the gym at J.H.S.123 Morrison by the Bruckner expressway here in the Bronx.

Troy L.Smith : So, what made you pick up the mic?

Pow Wow: Listening to Dota- Rock and Whipper Whip. I use to always listen to them because I was a dancer, you know a B Boy. One day we were up in the 63-school yard and I was listening to Whip and Dot and I was digging them so much they made me want to start rockin' the mic. Dot and Whip are my boys.

Troy L. Smith: What was going on in Bronx River Center in the daytime?

Pow Wow: They had everything going on in there, Karate class, boxing, after school center, senior citizen care, basketball tournament, talent shows etc. It was a 2-story building so we had the Dojo going on on the second floor. The center was right in the middle of Bronx River Projects. We use to give parties and give money back to the center for books and trips to Action Park for the kids, we use to give back a lot. They don’t do parties there any longer but it is still open. To be honest we stopped rocking in there cause it was getting too wild in there. Mr. Skinner who ran it was not feeling us from jump Street. We had a good ten-year run.

Troy: Who were all the crews under the Zulu Nation banner?

Pow Wow: Jazzy 5, Cosmic Force, Soul Sonic Force and Devastating 2 (God Bless Malibu who passed away) D.st. also rocked with us. Soul Sonic was the main crew. Bambaataa knew when it was time to get busy, me, Globe and Jazzy got busy! Bam had the records, Biggs was rappin' but he had his eyes on the door.

Troy: So what's the story about Lisa Lee before she got with the Cosmic Force?

Pow Wow: I am going to tell you about that. Lisa Lee was originally down with Soul Sonic. What happen was the first time we went down to Paul Winley records to do our first record we did not go, Bam took Cosmic instead. However, Lisa Lee did not know she thought Soul Sonic was going, therefore, she wound up doing the record with Cosmic.

Troy: So if Lisa Lee was originally down with Soul Sonic then your crew was a house!

Pow Wow: Well originally Hutch Hutch was down with us, he was right up the hill from me on 170th street. and Washington avenue. A little bit away from Grand Wizzard Theodore, who was 168th street and Boston Road. Break Out, Keith Caesar (Keith Keith) and Jazzy Jeff were all close to where I lived, just to give you an idea how much talent we had in this area of the Bronx. Globe was not down yet, my younger sister introduced me to Globe and I use to teach him how to B Boy. Globe came to my house one morning telling me he wanted to be an m.c.. Globe says to me, “I am going to write some stuff and I am going to come at you.” I say okay cool. That was the summer of 1977. Towards the fall or winter of 77 Globe knocks on my door and starts saying his rhyme.

“People, people, hear my voice” and it was so cold in my house because we didn’t have any steam. I was standing around the stove trying to get warm, so I started beating on my stove while Globe started rappin. I said hold up man, this boy sounds good, there's something about him. So I said let's sit down and start something together. Harmonizing was what was going on at that time and me and Hutch weren't clicking like I wanted us to. Troy, Globe filled the void.

Troy: Was there any other type of music being played at Bronx River like Disco or R&B?

Pow Wow: Just stone cold Hip-Hop. Disco was not cutting it there. Not for nothing but it was the same thing at Flash party’s. Yes, you go there to see the girls but you mostly go there to B-boy because Flash was playing that B-Boy cold Hip-Hop sound.

Troy: Do you remember the first time you played in Harlem (Manhattan)?

Pow Wow: We played with Donald Dee one time on 133rd street. What’s the building or project that is like a block away from the Hudson River? Where the 1 train goes by.

Troy: Manhattanville projects

Pow Wow: Yes we played there one night with Donald Dee. We were working the door that night. These cats came to the door talking about they wanted to bring their guns in. So, we took their guns from them. These cats came back kind of deep. This is the night when I gave Bambaataa his props. I knew he was a bad mother------, a powerful man but he ain’t never show me power like this.

I said, “Bam it’s deep, look out the window, he looked out the little window in the gym. They had about five cars outside waiting. I am saying to myself “Somebody is not going to make it”. I got my clips but ain’t nobody else bring no iron. Bam said, “I ain’t worried about that, give me a phone”. It didn’t take long when the street was flooded. Bam said, “Ain’t nobody going to mess with me.” Them cats that were trying to bring it to us, bowed down to us. In addition, they did not get their guns back.

Troy: What was the crime like inside Bronx River center?

Pow Wow: (Pow Wow starts laughing) High-level, high-level. Brothers caught it, especially when n------ came over with that bulls---. A perfect example, it was about 15 dudes from Brooklyn came up, they knew somebody who knew somebody, that’s how that went down but it was too late. These cats all night were just getting up doing wild s—!

Troy: They were asking for it.

Pow Wow: There you go.

Troy: I’m surprised you didn’t get them as soon as they started.

l-r Pow Wow, Troy L. Smith, Cholly Rock

Pow Wow: Nah Nah you know what, I cannot speak for any other Zulu that I don’t know about. All I can speak about are the brothers I rolled with. We were not troublemakers. Word, straight up Troy, the brothers I was running with were really holding s--- down. You had to have some type of knuckle game and if you didn’t have a knuckle game they would teach you and give you one. Then Troy, when the s--- hit the fan we had our time to rally out like a bunch of pirates, no doubt. But the majority of the time, and this is straight up, say somebody came with six dudes and things got thick, we could swarm on you and f--- you up. But we didn’t do that unless you was that type of mother f------ caliber

Troy: That deserved it! So you would give them a fair one?

Pow Wow: There you go. We would tell you to pick one. Whoever he picked you fought him. If you won you walked out. Straight up, we did not jump you. If you won, they let you walk out. Now if you want to be one of those fools that went ballistic and try to get crazy, that is when we turn the force on. You know what I am saying and just nip that in the bud. Let me tell you something out of all the Hip-Hop parties, ours were the most peaceful.

Troy: Hold up, you just said crime was high post there.

Pow Wow: Yea but this is what I mean, In Bronx River projects period, Bronx River projects was the wildest projects in the Bronx. Statistically speaking.

Troy: You weren’t from Bronx River projects originally?

Pow Wow: My family always lived there. One of my older brothers, on my father’s side, lived there as well as an aunt. Because of some trauma my aunt was going through I was sent there for therapeutic reasons. My mother (God bless her soul) use to take me there a lot when I was little, so as I got older I just stayed there. I was going back and forth, like it was my second home. Back to Zulu, we also had inner beefs over who was going to do what but outsiders were the ones who got it.

Troy.: Well what outsiders? Who in the world would come inside of Bronx River beefing?

Pow Wow: Well we had a few outsiders but we mostly stayed to ourselves. We eliminated that. Either you're going to come in here and have fun or do something stupid and get hurt.

Troy: So do you remember how that saying started “Come in peace or leave in pieces”?

Pow Wow: Nah that was always a cliché in the streets to me.

Troy: I hear you but they said that there was a sign in front of the projects that said that just before you came in, do you remember that?

Pow Wow: Listen back then we called Bronx River baby Vietnam. The home of Gods. Mayor Koch came to Bronx River to have meetings with us cause we use to put it on the cops.

Troy.: Were there any Zulu Queens?

Pow Wow: What, yes. Mrs. Kie Ann, Lisa Lee and Deb-O to names few. Deb-O was the leader as far as I was concern.That chick was big and bad. This was a mean, rough momma. You watch the Steve Harvey show, that girl Coretta? That character, Coretta played by Lady of Rage, is how Deb-O got down. She was not having it. I use to see her lay chicks out and fellas too, I never saw her lose.

Troy.: So how is she making out today?

Pow Wow: I saw her brother Troy on Bronx River day and he said she is doing okay.

Troy .What about Nae Nae?

Pow Wow: Nae Nae was running around with Islam.

Troy: Wasn’t Funk Machine with Islam, Kid Vicious and Donald Dee under the Zulu Nation umbrella as well?

Pow Wow: Yes they were all Zulu but they were not under Bam’s guidance. There were division’s. Islam really had the Mayberry crew down with him. My man O-Z and Caesar and the rest of the crew. They were all Black Spades. They were from a little section in the Bronx we called Mayberry, over there I think by CommonWealth avenue or Beach avenue. We called it Mayberry because it was in a quiet section of the Bronx like the Mayberry town on the Andy Griffin Show.

Troy. So, have you ever been to or rocked Harlem World?

Pow Wow: Once, as far as rockin it, I killed it, ripped it apart. Globe was not there but Ikey Cee and the rest of the Cosmic Force and me. The first time I got there, I was just hanging out with my fellas from Harlem. It was me, Son Dance, Roscoe, Dynamite, Ever Ready, Photo, Manic (Who use to walk around with Dynamite) these were my Zulu brothers. At this time, I also had an apartment up in Harlem’s Delano Village. Now my other brothers I was running with that were not Zulu but lived in Harlem, were I-van, Jamie-O, Buster, and Skinny.

Troy: Damn Pow Wow you were running with some thorough brothers back then.

Pow Wow: For sure they were like my brothers as we would hang out in the game room the Royal Flush and other places around Harlem. When I look back on my life I say damn Wow, God has blessed you to meet many people on the good side and bad side.

Troy: What about the T- Connection?

Pow Wow: We owned it! Meaning we were always there. However, I liked Bronx River better.

Troy. Seems as if they had a different flavor of girls at Bronx River then T- Connection. Like the girls at the River were harder.

Pow Wow: Bronx River girls were not as fast as T- Connection girls. Bronx River girls were more home settled and they had money.

Troy. You're going to tell me the Bronx River girls were more settled then the T- Connection girls?

Pow Wow: Yes because they were not exposed to as much as the chicks further up at the Tee.

Troy: Was there any difference between the Hip Hop in Bronx River and the Hip Hop in T- Connection.

Pow Wow: Yes it was much rawer in the Bronx River then at the T- Connection because at the River is the essence of Hip-Hop. The Tee was playing stuff like “Square Biz” that was not played in The River. Once the real Hip-Hop evolved that is when the T- Connection came into play. Like Garrison’s Basement, which was Flash’s spot on Garrison ave, and Fox street. D.J. Smokey’s spot which was called “Over the Dover” on 174th and Boston Road and that was a movie theater. The T- Connection wasn't on the map yet. Matter of fact Smokey who had D.J. Roscoe running with him was pulling the crowd from Herc and Flash. The B-Boys use to come to Flash and Herc’s parties, but then they started checking Smokey. Even the Nigger Twins who was bad and real good at what they do but mostly drove around with Herc and rocked at his parties came around and one day to the “Third avenue Ballroom” where the L-Brothers were rocking. Man Burnt Face Melvin and Black Amy tore it up”. Those were the first days, then came the T- Connection.

Troy: So how did you feel about Harlem World?

Pow Wow: I loved Harlem World. However, to be honest the girls were more materialistic in Harlem then in the Bronx. As far as the crews from Harlem that played the music, I loved them all. I respected them because they had their way of doing it. It was the Harlem Way. It's not as if they went up to the Bronx, copied us came back down and started doing it the Bronx way. They did it the Harlem way. Say like in Florida, they got there own thing. The pattern was basically the same “four or five m.c.s” “Get a girl”. but when it came down to rocking their style they were unique. It was beautiful.

They didn’t come out sounding like Melle Mel, they didn’t come out sounding like Soul Sonic, they didn’t come out sounding like L- Brothers they came out sounding like Moe Dee or Master Don or Fearless Four that’s what I liked about them. Sorry I wasn’t feeling Jekyll and Hyde or Johnnie Wa and Rayvon because that was like the Disco part of Harlem. Eddie Cheba, D.J. Hollywood. It wasn’t raw enough for me. The best crew I liked was Master Don and the Def Committee. Pebblee Poo is my sister. Also the Fearless Four.

Troy.: In a battle between Furious 5 and Treacherous 3 who would have won? Because you know there was a time when they were supposed to battle?

Pow Wow: Mel would have eaten their ass, Furious would have ate them. Mel would have got up in them regardless. But Creole and that brother Keith Cowboy (God rest his soul) forget about it. Mel was the Rhymer but Cowboy would get you jumping. They had a hell of chemistry together. I have been to plenty of their parties.

Troy: Now I have two tapes with Flash rockin the beat box and the Furious killin' it. The

the original recording has them at Bronx River doing their thing live. Then I have the tape where Bam is at the T-Connection rocking the recording they did at Bronx River which is called a plate, which everybody loves including me. But what in the world is a plate?

Pow Wow: I take a tape of a show and make a record out of it, or anything I record on a tape and put it on what is called a plate, and make a record out of it. A plate is vinyl.

Troy L. So say Apache, why is that not considered a plate?

Pow Wow: Because it was recorded like a regular record. Bam and me one night made a plate strictly of beats made for B- Boys. As far as them doing that show of routines for Bronx River center and the plate, the first time I saw them do that was before Bronx River, it was at the Dixie club. It was the bomb. Those boys were nice, they were nice at what they did and they had chemistry.

Troy: So in your opinion what club was rockin' the most other than the Bronx River?

Pow Wow: Bronx River was not the most rockin' club. Over in that section it was rockin, but over here by Third and Webster avenue The Black Door slash Dixie club was rocking. Another place called Rock City by 169th, 170th street.on Prospect avenue. The Ecstasy garage was slammin' too.

Troy.: So you and your boys use to run up in Disco Fever Too?

Pow Wow: Let me tell you about the Disco Fever, that was a place for cats trying to floss and front. It was boring to me. We as a group never even played in there. Now the brother that use to do the security in there was my man. His name was Mandingo.

Sal & Mandingo

Troy: Sorry to inform you, but Mandingo passed away about a month ago.(God Bless him)

Pow Wow: (Pow wow is very quiet at this moment) Nah get out. You just messed me up.

Troy.: Sorry Pow Wow, I see you and Mandingo were very cool.

Pow Wow : Yes. I knew Mandingo long before the Fever, we use to run together in the streets. So when I go to the Fever and see him it is all love and sometimes I might see Bam Bam in there too on security.

Troy: Where did the name Soul Sonic Force and Cosmic Force come from?

Pow Wow: I do not know where Cosmic came from. Me, Biggs and Bam made the name Soul Sonic Force. Some green book Bam had that was like a black awareness read and it was titled Soul Sonic. We did not want to say Soul Sonic crew or Soul Sonic 3 so we put the force on the end. The rest is history. We had no promoter, we promoted ourselves. As L.A. Sunshine said he was paid in pizza and it did not matter to him as long as he got to rock that mic, he was happy! I felt the same way because in the early days before our records it was not about money because I was getting my own money. I just wanted to get on the mic for rec. and girls. It was the latest thing going on at parties. Break dancing played out. I was not too good of a D.J.

Troy: Did Sugar Hill Records ever come at the crew to be on their label?

Pow Wow: Yes! We went out there a couple of times. We laid down a track called the “Rhythm of Life”. It was banging. It would have pumped to this day. I asked Sylvia Robinson what did she do with that track. She said “Pow Wow I am not going to lie to you it's somewhere buried.” “We weren’t trying to mess with you Zulu’s”. We met Sylvia through Cheryll the Pearl. Sylvia loves her like a daughter.

l to r Cheyll The Pearl, Dynamite, Blondy

Troy: So you guys were ready to go with Sugar Hill Label? Soul Sonic Force and Bam?

Pow Wow: Yes! But it fell through.

Troy: When 'Planet Rock' came out what clubs were you hitting at that time?

Pow Wow: The Bronx slowly played out. Roxy’s, CBGB’s, Urban Plaza, Peppermint Lounge, Roseland. We did an anniversary at Roseland, it was so big it made the front page of the Sunday Daily News. To be honest I felt Roxy was the best place rockin' at that time. The owner and I became really cool.

Troy: Once you did Roxy and other spots in New York you guys started traveling around the country with Planet Rock, what was the best state for you and the crew that showed you the most love? 

Pow Wow: Chicago! It was a club three blocks away from Wrigley field. The dressing room was down in the basement. All I heard the crowd saying was “More, more, more!”. The mayor had to come downstairs and give us $1500 dollars more for 10 minutes. All we had at the time was “Planet Rock”. We were writing the Perfect Beat at that time on the road. A lot of places we got good responses. There was a club in South Carolina called the Razzle Dazzle that we ripped apart and the feedback we received was unbelievable.

There was another club we liked because it rock so hard it was called the “Rob Benders” in Yonkers. The stairs there was like the stairs at T- Connection. When you got up stairs and sat down the floor actually rocked. After a while you would think the floor is going to cave in. We rocked countries and places like Madrid, Paris, London, Germany, Japan was fly, Hawaii was on. We played at a couple of places in Florida called “Pin Rod’s” and “Big Daddy’s” that were slamming. Norby Walters was our booking agent when we was runnin' with Tommy Boy records, with his gangster self. He was kool and the gang with me and he was a powerful brother.

Troy: When you played the west coast did you run into Ice T?

Pow Wow : We played at San Diego Padres Baseball field. I’m going to bug you out. When Cheryl Lynn did that record Encore, we were on that card performing as well. Remember it was live? It was live right there that day we were there. Roger Troutman, Gap Band, a group called Goody and Cameo were also there along with us. In L.A. we rocked a club from the movie called “Breakin”. The club was called Radiotron. Who was spinning was a brother called D.J. Glove who was real nice and he was Ice T’s D.J. That was how I met Ice T. One time we linked up at the Joe Louis arena in Detroit with Mel and the Furious Five and rocked it. We took the Bronx to Detroit

Troy: Thank you Pow Wow.

Thanks again Pow Wow. I have to say Pow Wow is one of the coolest brothers in Hip-hop since I started doing these stories, much love and respect to my brother Pow Wow. Rest in Peace to my Good Brother.

Thank you also JayQuan my brother. Troy L. Smith from Harlem, the Grant projects. Read Proverbs a chapter a day.